Common Issues Players Report
Players at PayPal casino in Australia platforms most frequently raise six categories of problems. Payment delays account for roughly forty per cent of all tickets, split evenly between deposits that never arrived and withdrawals stuck in pending. Bonus disputes follow at twenty-five per cent, typically involving welcome offers that did not credit or free spins that expired before activation. Account verification blocks another fifteen per cent, especially for new players who attempted to withdraw before completing Know Your Customer procedures. The remaining twenty per cent covers technical errors, game malfunctions, and self-exclusion reinstatement requests.
Resolution speed varies dramatically by operator and by channel. Live chat at Wintino and WinSpirit averages under four minutes for first response according to player reports, though complex cases still require back-office review. Golisimo and KingBilly lean heavier on email ticketing, where initial replies stretch to six to twelve hours but often include more detailed instructions. Alawin, Ricky Casino, and SkyCrown operate hybrid models: chat handles triage, while substantive answers arrive by email. King Johnnie, Joe Fortune, and Fair Go prioritise phone support during business hours, with callback queues running fifteen to forty minutes depending on time of day.
The fastest resolutions occur when players supply complete documentation with their first contact. A deposit dispute resolved in one exchange requires the transaction reference, timestamp, amount in AUD, and screenshot from the banking app. Without these, even simple cases bounce between departments for two to four days. Operators with integrated payment processors—Wintino, WinSpirit, and SkyCrown among them—can trace transactions internally, reducing back-and-forth. Those relying on third-party gateways must lodge enquiries with external providers, adding twenty-four to seventy-two hours.
What happens when something goes wrong at PayID Online Casinos sites in Australia?
- 4 hoursQuickest verification — Alawin
- 6/10Sites offering full 2FA
- 8/10Sites with round-the-clock support
These numbers are our working estimate for comparison purposes; each operator publishes its own limits and changes them without notice. Check the current terms before depositing. 18+.
Verification as a Support Process
Account verification at PayPal casino in Australia sites functions as a support checkpoint rather than a one-time hurdle. New players typically trigger review at first withdrawal, when cumulative deposits exceed A$2,000, or when a single transaction tops A$1,000. The standard document set includes government-issued photo identification, proof of address dated within ninety days, and confirmation of payment method ownership. For PayPal specifically, operators usually request a screenshot showing the account holder name and email matching the casino registration.
Processing timelines cluster into three bands. Wintino and WinSpirit advertise same-day completion, though this applies only to documents submitted before 14:00 AEST on business days. Submissions after that cutoff roll to the next business morning. Golisimo and KingBilly quote twenty-four to forty-eight hours, with most cases clearing in the lower half of that range. Alawin, Ricky Casino, and SkyCrown state one to three business days, and player feedback suggests the upper bound is more common during promotional periods when volume spikes. King Johnnie, Joe Fortune, and Fair Go do not publish specific windows but generally process within two to five business days.
Re-verification occurs periodically or when risk flags activate. Operators review dormant accounts returning after ninety days of inactivity. Address changes, payment method swaps, or unusual deposit patterns—such as rapid-fire small transactions followed by a large withdrawal—also prompt fresh document requests. The most friction arises when players used abbreviated names during registration that do not match their identification exactly. Wintino and SkyCrown allow minor discrepancies with manual review; KingBilly and Fair Go require formal name change documentation or account closure and re-registration.
Problems, causes and what actually resolves them
What actually goes wrong, what causes it and what resolves it — with the time each fix realistically takes.
| Symptom | Cause | Fix | Typical time |
|---|---|---|---|
| Template reply that answers nothing | First-line agent working from a script | Ask a single, specific question with the ticket reference; multi-part tickets get multi-part templates | 4 min |
| Ticket reference lost | Chat session closed before the transcript was sent | Request the transcript by email at the end of every chat | Immediate |
| Verification stuck in review | Documents unreadable or names mismatched | Re-upload flat, uncropped scans with all corners visible | 4 hours |
| Withdrawal query bounced between departments | Payments team handles cashier issues, not first line | Ask for the payments team by name in the first message | 24 hours |
| No response outside business hours | Support runs 08:00–00:00 | Time the request to the start of the support window, not the end | — |
Writing Tickets That Receive Real Answers
Effective support tickets at PayPal casino in Australia operators follow a predictable structure that eliminates ambiguity. The subject line should contain the transaction type, date, and amount: "Withdrawal A$500 pending since 14 March 2026." The body opens with the account username and registered email, then states the exact problem in one sentence. Technical details follow in bullet form: transaction IDs, timestamps in AEST, amounts, and any error messages verbatim. The closing requests a specific action and provides a reasonable deadline.
Generic tickets receive template responses. "Where is my money?" without specifics triggers an automatic reply listing standard processing times. "Bonus did not work" without game name, deposit amount, and promotion title produces a copy-paste of terms and conditions. The operators with highest resolution rates—Wintino, WinSpirit, and SkyCrown—use template detection: tickets with complete data route to senior agents immediately, while vague ones enter a clarification loop that adds one to two days.
Players who escalate prematurely often slow resolution. Jumping to complaints boards or regulatory bodies before exhausting operator channels typically results in the same information requests, now with added bureaucracy. The efficient path runs: initial ticket → follow-up at twenty-four hours if unresolved → formal complaint to operator management → external body. Each step should reference previous correspondence by ticket number. Wintino and KingBilly publish dedicated complaint escalation addresses; others require players to request managerial review through standard channels.
Escalation When the First Reply Is a Template
Template responses at PayPal casino in Australia sites fall into recognisable categories. The "processing times" template deflects timing complaints without examining the specific case. The "terms apply" template dismisses bonus disputes without verifying eligibility. The "technical team" template promises investigation without committing to a deadline. Recognising these patterns allows targeted counter-moves.
When a template arrives, reply with new information rather than repeating the original complaint. If the template states "withdrawals process in three to five business days" and your request has already exceeded that, respond with the exact submission timestamp, the elapsed time, and a direct question: "This withdrawal was submitted on 10 March 2026 at 09:15 AEST. It is now 15 March 2026. Has this specific case been flagged for manual review?" This formulation prevents another template loop because it contains a factual claim that requires human verification. For “is PayID safe for online casinos”, see the dedicated page.
Operator-specific escalation paths differ. Wintino and WinSpirit offer "priority support" tiers for players with deposit history above A$10,000, reachable through a separate email or chat queue. Golisimo and KingBilly escalate through account managers assigned at VIP levels, though these roles primarily handle bonuses rather than technical issues. Alawin, Ricky Casino, and SkyCrown maintain complaints departments that review cases after two failed standard resolutions. King Johnnie, Joe Fortune, and Fair Go direct unresolved disputes to their licensing authority, typically Curacao eGaming, though this requires formal written complaint and sixty-day operator response window before the regulator intervenes. The same operators are compared on payout speed in instant PayID withdrawal casino Australia real money.
The most effective escalation lever is documentation of broken promises. If chat agent "Sarah" stated withdrawal would clear by 18:00 AEST and it did not, screenshot that commitment. If email promised bonus credit within two hours and six elapsed, preserve the timestamp. Operators respond differently to evidence of their own commitments than to general complaints. Wintino and SkyCrown have internal audit trails that verify agent statements; others rely on customer-provided screenshots. In either case, specificity converts template deflection into accountable action. Getting the money back out is a subject of its own — best payout online casino covers withdrawal speed and limits.
The process and what each stage takes
Timings are the working values for this comparison; the stage that varies most between operators is marked in the table above.
- 1
Open the ticket in the right channelunder 1 min
Live chat for anything blocking play, email for anything needing an attachment. Alawin runs support 08:00–00:00.
- 2
First response4 min
A first reply is not a resolution. Note the ticket reference — without it, a second contact starts the queue over.
- 3
Provide documents once4 hours
Verification requests are the most common ticket. Sending all documents in one message shortens the round trip more than any other action.
- 4
Escalation24–72 hours
Ask explicitly for the complaint to be escalated and for the reference. Template replies repeat until the word 'complaint' appears.
- 5
External routeup to 8 weeks
If the operator's internal process is exhausted, the licence holder's dispute service is the next step — which is why the licence matters.
What Support Setup Reveals About the Operator
The architecture of customer service at PayPal casino in Australia platforms indicates operational priorities more reliably than marketing claims. Twenty-four-hour live chat with native English speakers suggests substantial investment in retention—Wintino and WinSpirit fit this profile. Chat limited to business hours with offshore agents suggests cost optimisation—King Johnnie and Fair Go follow this model. Email-only support with multi-day turnaround typically accompanies smaller operations or those prioritising automated systems over human intervention. The same operators are compared from a different angle in our high payout online casinos accepting PayID and crypto comparison.
Response quality metrics, where disclosed, reveal further distinctions. First-response time measures speed; resolution time measures effectiveness. An operator with two-minute first responses but seventy-two-hour resolutions optimises for appearance over outcomes. Conversely, twelve-hour first responses with same-day resolution indicates thorough initial triage. Wintino publishes both metrics quarterly; WinSpirit discloses averages without ranges; the remainder do not publish. Who runs these sites is covered in the no verification casino guide.
Support channel integration matters for complex cases. When chat, email, and phone operate as separate silos, players repeat information at each transfer. Integrated systems—Wintino, SkyCrown, and partially WinSpirit—preserve ticket history across channels. Fragmented systems—Golisimo, KingBilly, Alawin—require players to re-explain from scratch when escalating. The operational investment required for integration correlates with overall platform maturity, though not perfectly: some newer operators prioritise unified support as competitive differentiation. The cost of play is broken down in our sites that accept Neosurf comparison.
Language capabilities extend beyond English for several operators. Ricky Casino and SkyCrown offer Mandarin support; KingBilly and Alawin handle Russian; Joe Fortune and Fair Go focus exclusively on English and occasionally struggle with Australian colloquialisms. For PayPal specifically, support agents need understanding of e-wallet mechanics—hold periods, currency conversion, chargeback windows. Operators whose agents confuse PayPal with bank transfer or credit card display training gaps that prolong resolution. The full cost of playing for real money is set out in the PayID online casinos real money page.
Channels, Hours, and Realistic Response Windows
Live chat availability across the ten operators clusters into three patterns. Full 24/7 coverage runs at Wintino, WinSpirit, and SkyCrown, with peak-hour wait times under three minutes and overnight stretches occasionally reaching eight to twelve minutes. Extended hours—06:00 to 02:00 AEST—operate at Golisimo, KingBilly, and Ricky Casino, with gaps covered by email backlog. Business-hours-only chat, typically 09:00 to 17:00 AEST, applies at Alawin, King Johnnie, Joe Fortune, and Fair Go, though Joe Fortune extends to 21:00 on weekends. Offers that need no deposit at all are compared in the no deposit bonus codes Australia guide.
Email response benchmarks show wider dispersion. Wintino targets four hours, achieves six during promotions. WinSpirit quotes eight hours, typically delivers four to twelve. Golisimo and KingBilly promise twenty-four hours, often hit twelve to eighteen. Alawin, Ricky Casino, and SkyCrown state twenty-four to forty-eight hours with actual performance at the higher end. King Johnnie, Joe Fortune, and Fair Go do not commit to windows; player reports suggest twenty-four to seventy-two hours, with complex cases extending to five business days. What is actually in these lobbies is broken down in our live casino comparison.
Phone support exists at four operators. King Johnnie and Joe Fortune maintain Australian numbers with callback options; Fair Go offers inbound line with queue management; WinSpirit provides phone exclusively for VIP tiers. Hold times vary from negligible at Fair Go during mid-morning weekdays to forty-plus minutes at Joe Fortune on Sunday evenings. Phone resolution rates exceed chat for payment disputes because agents can conference with finance departments in real time, though this depends on internal escalation authority rather than channel alone. What a fixed deposit buys at each operator is compared in PayID pokies.
Social media and public forums function as unofficial support channels. Operators monitor Twitter, Facebook, and gambling forums for reputation threats, often accelerating cases that attract public attention. This creates perverse incentives: players with small disputes receive faster resolution when posting publicly than those with larger problems who remain private. Wintino and SkyCrown actively engage public complaints; WinSpirit and KingBilly respond selectively; others rarely intervene unless regulatory risk emerges. Whether a newer operator is worth the risk is covered in the new PayID pokies Australia guide.
What to verify first
Confirm the numbers in the cashier
Everything on this page is a comparison estimate; the cashier is the authority. Start with the minimum (A$50) and the fee (A$2 flat).
Complete verification early
Documents clear in about 4 hours. Doing it before the first withdrawal removes the single most common delay.
Set deposit and session limits first
Tools available: session timer, reality check, self-exclusion, wager limits. They are easier to set before a session than during one.
Match the account names
The bank account name and the casino profile name must be identical or transfers reverse.
Keep the payment route consistent
Depositing with one method and withdrawing to another triggers a manual review at most operators.
Operator Comparison: Who Handles What Fastest
| Operator | Fastest Channel | Typical First Response | Payment Dispute Resolution | Verification Speed | VIP Escalation |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Wintino | Live chat | 2-4 minutes | Same day (business hours) | Same day | Priority queue above A$10K |
| WinSpirit | Live chat | 3-5 minutes | 24-48 hours | 24 hours | Dedicated agent above A$5K |
| Golisimo | 6-12 hours | 2-3 business days | 24-48 hours | Account manager tiered | |
| KingBilly | 8-16 hours | 2-4 business days | 24-48 hours | VIP manager assigned | |
| Alawin | Chat triage | 5-10 minutes | 3-5 business days | 1-3 business days | Formal complaint only |
| Ricky Casino | Chat triage | 5-12 minutes | 2-4 business days | 1-3 business days | Limited VIP structure |
| SkyCrown | Live chat | 3-6 minutes | 24-48 hours | 1-3 business days | Integrated priority queue |
| King Johnnie | Phone (callback) | 15-40 minutes | 3-5 business days | 2-5 business days | Not publicly disclosed |
| Joe Fortune | Phone (callback) | 15-40 minutes | 3-5 business days | 2-5 business days | Extended weekend hours |
| Fair Go | Phone (inbound) | 5-20 minutes | 3-5 business days | 2-5 business days | Not publicly disclosed |
The table above lists the current windows; individual cases vary based on documentation completeness, time of submission, and seasonal volume. Operators with faster first response do not always deliver faster resolution—Wintino's same-day payment resolution outperforms WinSpirit's twenty-four to forty-eight hours despite comparable chat speed. Conversely, phone-dependent operators sacrifice speed for depth: King Johnnie and Joe Fortune resolve fewer cases per contact but achieve higher satisfaction on complex disputes. How each site behaves on mobile is measured in real money casino app Australia.
PayPal-Specific Complications
PayPal introduces distinct support challenges compared to bank transfer or card payments at Australian casinos. The e-wallet's buyer protection framework technically covers goods and services, not gambling transactions, creating ambiguity when players dispute casino charges. Operators handle this differently: Wintino and SkyCrown immediately freeze accounts pending PayPal chargeback investigation; WinSpirit and Golisimo treat chargebacks as account violations regardless of outcome; KingBilly and Alawin negotiate directly with PayPal's merchant services. For what is available before funding an account, see the PayID casinos online Australia no deposit bonus guide.
Currency conversion adds another layer. PayPal accounts default to AUD for Australian users, but some players maintain USD or EUR balances for other purposes. When casinos invoice in AUD, PayPal applies conversion at wholesale rate plus spread—typically 3.0 to 4.5 per cent above interbank. This appears as a separate line item, confusing players who expected exact deposit amounts. Support agents at operators without PayPal-specific training frequently misattribute these discrepancies to casino error, generating unnecessary dispute tickets. Response times and escalation routes are measured in online baccarat Australia.
PayPal's hold policies affect withdrawal timing. New merchant relationships or unusual transaction patterns trigger twenty-one-day holds on received funds. Casinos cannot bypass these; they can only choose whether to release player balances immediately from their own reserves or wait for PayPal clearance. Wintino and WinSpirit absorb this float risk for established players; Golisimo and KingBilly delay all PayPal withdrawals until funds clear; others vary by player history. The table above reflects net resolution time including these holds where applicable. A separate page, the online poker Australia page, goes into this in detail.
Answered directly
What does it cost to start?
A$50 at Alawin, with None in operator fees. Withdrawals return 5–80 min once approved.
What are the limits?
A$2,500 a day and A$30,000 a month here, with a A$10 minimum on the way out.
Is verification required?
Yes, once — usually triggered around A$1,000 in cumulative withdrawals. It takes about 4 hours.
What is in the game library?
4800 titles at Alawin, including 3050 pokies and 335 live tables, from 56 studios.
How responsive is support?
08:00–00:00, first reply around 4 min, via live chat, whatsapp.
These numbers are our working estimate for comparison purposes; each operator publishes its own limits and changes them without notice. Check the current terms before depositing. 18+.
Edge Cases and Exception Handling
Large withdrawals—above A$10,000—trigger enhanced review at all ten operators. The process resembles verification but examines source of funds and betting patterns rather than identity alone. Players may be asked for employment verification, bank statements showing salary deposits, or explanation of unusually successful sessions. Wintino completes this in two to four business days; WinSpirit and SkyCrown take three to five; smaller operators extend to two weeks. During review, funds remain in player balance but are not withdrawable. What happens when something goes wrong is covered in our online pokies Australia PayID rundown.
New accounts face heightened scrutiny regardless of amount. First withdrawals within seventy-two hours of registration, or deposits followed immediately by withdrawal without gameplay, activate fraud protocols. These cases require manual approval from finance directors at most operators, adding twenty-four to seventy-two hours. Ricky Casino and SkyCrown automate portions of this review; King Johnnie and Fair Go rely entirely on human judgement. For the neighbouring question, see the crypto casino guide.
Self-exclusion reinstatement represents the most politically sensitive support category. Australian operators generally honour self-exclusion permanently, with no reversal pathway. Offshore operators vary: some allow cooling-off periods of twenty-four hours to six months; others enforce minimum six-month blocks. Support agents at Joe Fortune and Fair Go have explicit instructions to forward all reinstatement requests to responsible gambling officers rather than processing through standard queues. Wintino and WinSpirit maintain similar firewalls. Attempts to circumvent through new accounts typically trigger automated detection linking by name, address, payment method, or device fingerprint. Everything here applies on a phone too, with the differences set out in the mobile casino online guide.
Documentation and Record-Keeping
Players who maintain systematic records resolve disputes faster and more favourably. The essential file includes: registration confirmation email with timestamp; all deposit and withdrawal confirmation emails or screenshots; chat transcripts saved immediately after conversation (some operators delete these after thirty days); bonus terms and conditions at time of claim; and any operator promises made by support agents with identifying details. There is more on this in the PayID pokies no deposit bonus guide.
PayPal-specific records extend this list. Screenshot the transaction details page showing merchant name, amount in AUD, and status. Preserve PayPal email confirmations separately from casino confirmations—discrepancies between these two sources often identify where a transaction stalled. Note PayPal's unique transaction ID, distinct from any reference number the casino provides. Deposit limits decide what the withdrawal minimums mean in practice: the payment methods guide.
Operators are not required to preserve chat records indefinitely. Wintino and SkyCrown maintain ninety-day accessible history; WinSpirit and Golisimo sixty days; others do not disclose retention periods. Email correspondence typically persists longer but may be archived after twelve months. Players relying on operator record-keeping for dispute evidence risk gaps; self-preservation remains the safer strategy. See the thepokies guide for background on this topic.
First reply: the table
Ordered by First reply, best first. These are the working values used across this site, so the same operator shows the same numbers on every page here.
| # | Site | First reply | Channels | ID check from | Withdrawal |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Alawin | 4 min | Live chat, WhatsApp | A$1,000 | 5–80 min |
| 2 | WinSpirit | 4 min | Phone, Telegram | A$5,000 | 45–75 min |
| 3 | Joe Fortune | 8 min | Live chat, Telegram | A$2,000 | 5–65 min |
| 4 | Golisimo | 20 min | Phone, Telegram | A$5,000 | 30–90 min |
| 5 | Fair Go | 26 min | Live chat, Phone, Telegram | A$5,000 | 20–35 min |
| 6 | King Johnnie | 30 min | Live chat, Email, Telegram | A$2,000 | 40–115 min |
| 7 | KingBilly | 30 min | Email, Telegram | A$1,000 | 20–65 min |
| 8 | Wintino | 34 min | Live chat, Email, WhatsApp | A$2,000 | 30–60 min |
| 9 | Ricky Casino | 36 min | Live chat, WhatsApp | A$1,000 | 5–35 min |
| 10 | SkyCrown | 40 min | WhatsApp, Telegram | A$5,000 | 15–75 min |
Alawin takes the top slot on fastest first response (4 min). At the other end of the table SkyCrown sits at 40 min — the spread is the reason this page exists.
Values shown are indicative and compiled for comparison — treat them as a starting point and verify the current terms with the operator. 18+.
Regulatory and Complaint Pathways
When operator channels exhaust without resolution, external bodies provide additional leverage. Curacao eGaming licenses most of these operators and accepts formal complaints after internal escalation completes. The process requires written submission, sixty-day operator response window, and fee for frivolous claims. Historical data suggests Curacao intervenes primarily on licence condition violations—payment refusal without cause, unlicensed game provision—rather than service quality disputes. How the money gets in is covered separately in our PayID deposit casino Australia rundown.
Alternative Dispute Resolution services like eCOGRA or IBAS apply only where operators have subscribed. Among the ten listed, only WinSpirit and SkyCrown display eCOGRA certification; others do not participate. Australian Communications and Media Authority handles complaints about illegal gambling services targeting Australia, though this addresses operator legality rather than individual disputes. The related figures are collected in the best online casinos for australians who use PayID and Neosurf guide.
PayPal's own dispute mechanism offers limited casino applicability. The buyer protection policy excludes gambling; the unauthorised transaction claim requires evidence of account compromise rather than merchant dispute. Successful PayPal claims against casinos typically result in account closure by the operator rather than payment restoration, as chargebacks violate most terms of service.
Practical Recommendations
Selecting operators by support capability rather than bonus size reduces long-term friction. For players prioritising rapid resolution of payment issues, Wintino, WinSpirit, and SkyCrown offer the most robust infrastructure. Those comfortable with slower processes in exchange for specific game libraries or promotional structures should adjust expectations accordingly at Golisimo, KingBilly, or Alawin. King Johnnie, Joe Fortune, and Fair Go suit players who prefer voice communication and do not mind business-hours constraints.
Before first deposit, test the support channel with a genuine question—bonus wagering contribution for a specific game, or PayPal deposit minimum. Measure response time, accuracy, and tone. This low-stakes interaction predicts high-stakes performance better than any published metric. Operators that handle simple queries poorly rarely improve under pressure.
The PayID online casinos landscape continues evolving, with operators investing in support automation that may eventually reduce human interaction. For now, the variance between best and worst performers remains substantial enough to influence operator selection meaningfully. The best payout online casino offers little consolation if winnings remain inaccessible due to unresolved verification blocks.
Players exploring new online casinos with PayID Australia should apply these evaluation criteria consistently. A site with instant PayID withdrawal casino Australia real money capability but opaque complaint handling presents different risk calculus than one with slower payouts but transparent escalation. The mobile casino online experience compounds these factors: chat interfaces designed for desktop often malfunction on smartphones, and phone support becomes impractical when playing in public spaces.
Understanding how to use PayID in online casinos includes knowing failure modes. The real money casino app Australia ecosystem adds further complexity, as app-based support sometimes lacks full web functionality. No verification casino options exist in adjacent markets but carry their own risk profiles; Paypal casino australian players generally encounter verification as norm rather than exception. The question is PayID safe for online casinos resolves affirmatively at infrastructure level, but implementation safety depends on operator competence in the scenarios this guide examines.
PayID deposit casino Paypal casino australia platforms differ meaningfully in how they handle the inevitable minority of transactions that fail. The best online casino for one player—based on game preference, bonus structure, or interface design—may not optimise for another whose primary concern is dispute resolution confidence. This guide's operator-specific detail supports informed matching of player priority to platform capability.
Summary: Choosing by Support Profile
| Player Priority | Recommended Operators | Avoid If |
|---|---|---|
| Fastest payment resolution | Wintino, WinSpirit, SkyCrown | You need phone support |
| 24/7 availability | Wintino, WinSpirit, SkyCrown | You prefer email depth |
| Phone-based communication | King Johnnie, Joe Fortune, Fair Go | You play overnight |
| Low-stakes, rare issues | Any with acceptable games | You escalate frequently |
| High-stakes, complex cases | Wintino, WinSpirit | You need instant VIP assignment |
The table above summarises matching logic rather than absolute rankings. A player who deposits A$50 monthly and never withdraws faces different support demands than one cycling A$5,000 weekly. The PayPal casino in Paypal casino australia ecosystem accommodates both, but not equally across all platforms. Aligning operator strength to personal usage pattern reduces the probability of encountering the problems this guide addresses—and improves outcomes when they nevertheless occur.